I can certainly understand why some people do not trust the Bible and the many translations that have been done. With a little understanding of the History of the Bible and how much pain, hard work and dedication that went into making the translations accurate, you would then see that the Bible is the most accurate piece of historical document that man has in his possession.
I am not just saying this because I am a Christian, here are the facts, the only book that comes close as far as accuracy is the manuscripts (copies) of “Homer” (writer of the Trojan Horse) These writings were copied 500 years between the times of the original documents. Six hundred and forty three (643) copies still exist and the writings are 95% correct. The original document was written 900 B.C. the earliest copy was done about 400 B.C.
Compare those stats to the “New Testament†writings of the Bible
The “New Testament†Documents were copied less than 100 years between the time of the original documents 5600 copies still exist and the writings are 99.5% correct. The original documents were written 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.) and the earliest copy was made 2nd Cent. A.D. (c. 130 A.D. f.). The original copy still exists today. Historians can still compare the copies against the original. Note: The Old Testament is not taken in as a factor yet, in the equation.
Some may call the Bible a classic, but to call the Bible a “Classic†is diminishing its importance and shows a lack of understanding about the History and present statistics on the Bible. The Bible is the most translated book in the entire history of mankind and it is still being translated into many of the world’s languages, the current goal is to translate it into all the languages of the world by 2025. A partial fulfillment of prophesy foretold in Mathew 24:14:
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.†Mathew 24:14:
The Bible is still the number 1 best seller of all time, surpassing every book that has ever been written. In fact The Bible consists of 66 books: 39 in the OT (Old Testament) and 27 in the NT (New Testament). The Bible took about 1600 years to be written. It was written in 3 languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek) by about 40 authors from about 65 different countries around the world and is internally consistent throughout.
The Bible has been a source of hope and assurance to millions of people, at the same time, it has been misused and abused. People have been trying to destroy it and wipe it out of the minds of mankind, wicked men have even tried to burn them, but still it prevails, a fulfillment of Mathew 24:35
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.†Mathew 24:35
It is interesting to note that since the Amity printing press (the largest printing press in Soviet China) was built, Amity has printed more than 50 million Bibles in 75 different languages, exporting them to 60 countries. Recently, the printing press moved to a new location, now with its Timson T32 high-speed web-press, they have the capacity to print a million Bibles a month. “The time when the Bible was in short supply in China is now consigned to history!” ~ Rev. Cao Shengjie, former China Christian Council President
I say these things above not to convince anyone, because I myself did not know these facts before I became a Christian, It was the Holy Spirit working on my heart and letting me know that I need the saving grace of Jesus . When I gave my life to Christ a miracle took place and I became a new man, I cannot explain the supernatural but, the natural things that changed in my life, gives evidence of the new birth that has taken place. We don’t have to know all the facts about the Bible to place our faith in God.
In our tolerant and inclusive society, we may be confused as to why we should believe totally in the Bible and in Jesus, after all, there are so many religions out there. What makes the Bible and Christianity so special and exclusive? The Bible is exclusive because, it is the inspired “Word of God”
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Jesus is the only savior given to mankind and He is the only one qualified to save us, because He came and lived a sinless life, died and resurrected and went back to heaven with a promise to return and give that same resurrection power to us, so that we too can live forever. If you check any other religion, you will not find anyone qualified to save us from our sins or give any evidence of resurrection power, coupled with the promise of eternal life; so as for me, I will continue to place my trust in the Bible, the inspired Word of God and the Messiah Jesus Christ of Nazareth. His words can be trusted and the world has not found any fault with Jesus or His Word. If we refuse to believe the Bible then we must throw out all the writings of all other books that exist, because they do not stand up against the Bible in either accuracy or reliability.
General Bible Resources:
- The Bible
- Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability :
- Historic Bible Pages Put Online
- The History of The Bible
If you are not a Christian and you would like to know more about how to be saved, please read The Gospel.
Please share any interesting information on the Bible or share how the Bible has impacted your life, in the comments section below.
54 thoughts on “The Reliability of The Bible”
I have read through the posts and all the comments and have learnt a lot of new things.
And, in the end, I am more convinced that the Bible really is the infallible Word of God.
Interesting Conversation. I Believe you do need to study the past to know the future. I recently Facilitated a course put out by Great American Courses which have the “Historical Jesus” “Battles of Authenticity” “Early Christianity to Pope Constantine” All good courses that are very interesting to hear from a scholastic level.Just a few facts from those lectures. There are 12,574 Manuscripts known of the Bible. Mark is the oldest, followed by Mathew, then Luke and Finally John. It was an Archbishop at the Council of Nascine, who decided that there would be four Gospels for the New Testament, One for Each direction, North, South, East and West. He then through out the others. Most scholars believe there is another manuscript that Mark copied and that is only know for lack of the author, “Q” The Bible is a great resource and is proof positive that Jesus, Did exist and that his teachings are very Real.
Thanks for those info DrChopper. God’s word stands forever.
Just an update to the blog, I said:
, the goal is actually 2025. you can find out more at Wycliffe Bible Translations
Current Statistics: http://www.wycliffe.org/About/Statistics.aspx
Thanks for the update and link.
Donate to wycliffe – help them to fund the translation project:
https://www.wycliffe.org/webshop/ProjectDonationItem.aspx?ProductID=130
Excellent post really love the statistics on the Bible that you gave, never knew some of those, thanks for the follow up links too. I see a lot of back and forth conversation here, I will not comment on anything relating to that.
I believe in the Bible and I will just share a little of how it has impacted my life. Before I became a Christian, I used to smoke, drink, dabble in other drugs, basically speaking I was living life the way I wanted to live it, but there was always something missing, to cut a long story short, I finally decided to give my life to Christ and the Bible was a great source of help especially when I was on the verge of a depression (can’t tell you why I was depressed, too personal) but I found the Psalms to be very uplifting and reassuring. I personally got strength to get up and face my problems, now I don’t drink, smoke or dabble in drugs anymore, don’t get me wrong I am still tempted to do wrong. I am a new man living in the strength of the Lord and reading the Bible has really helped me. But the most profound thing to me is that, I have the assurance of not only all my sins being forgiven, but the assurance of eternal life when Jesus returns, I have a joy in my heart that I just cannot explain, because I know the person I could have been without God.
BTW, I like the links for the Bible verses.
Thanks Ben, that was done with a plugin called “The Holy Scripturizer” for WordPress.
Amazing, good stuff here.
Useful article with a sense of apologetical approach. Looks to me like you have done some reading also, before writing this post which is good.
It would be great if you can update this with some more information.
If you like you can check this URL for a PowerPoint I have done on ‘History of the Bible’.
http://virtualpreacher.org/2009/09/11/how-did-we-get-the-bible-in-powerpoint/
Yohan, thanks for reading the article and sharing the link to your PowerPoint. The PowerPoint is very good, it has far more information than I could place in this post, I will add it to the list of links, so readers can check it out. It is good for Christians to know the history behind the Bible, if we don’t, then we start to make assumptions about it.
I don’t see how translations being 99.5% correct in relation to the original documents shows that the information in the original document was correct in the first place.
The manuscripts being 99.5% correct only relates to the accuracy of the manuscripts. (copies) Many factors come into play when studying the reliability of the original documents. The original documents and the 5,600 manuscripts have been studied by historians against other historical writings, such as the writings of Josephus, which had nothing to do with Christianity and they relate to the same time period and speak about similar events and people such as Jesus.
I agree that the Bible is a useful historical document, but it is not a reliable source of facts (as implied by your article), only beliefs.
I gotta say those facts are pretty fascinating. You’re right as far as historical record goes, there is no Document or book that has more integrity.
Ben – All facts have an amount of belief to them. Over the years I’m sure you will agree that many teachings of science were believed to be facts for a long time. They were facts because a majority believed them to be true, and everything we could do to at the time to test them lead us to believe they are facts. All until something/someone else proves them wrong using some other measurement based on new understanding. You see, they “believed” that there was no other way to prove something wrong, until that other way was discovered.
An example: Recently I read a story that talked about being able to falsify DNA. For a long time it was fact that DNA was impossible to falsify. Many court cases are won and lost based on that fact.
We as Christians believe that the Bible in its entirety is fact. And until someone can prove how the supernatural is not God it will remain like that. 🙂
Some people believe global warming to be fact, based on how many scientists understand climate. And just the same they will not be convinced otherwise until its proved otherwise using methods yet to be discovered.
P.s. On an aside here, something jumped out at me from that post. The year 2012 which as I’m sure many of you know, is the end of the Mayan calendar, Nostradamus’ predictions, end of the current election cycle, etc… Not that I believe any of it, I just find it interesting.
Ben, I think the main point of this article is that, since we place our trust in many other historical documents that do not have as much integrity as the Bible… it does us no harm to take a look at the Bible.
I think a good subject to study in the Bible to see whether or not it is true or “hold water”, is the prophesies. I find it most interesting to see that all the prophesies are either fulfilled or are being fulfilled. Not even Nostradamus’ predictions can test those in Bible… there are some that were fulfilled, others that people thought to have been fulfilled and then those that are verify. Remember also that the Old Testament’s contemporaries would have thrown out the Bible if the things written in them were not true. The New Testament went through many trials in churches before it was canonized. We don’t accept everything just because someone said it is from God. It must be proven in the “fire” and the “market places of integrity and truth”
The prophecies are all self-fulfilling, misquoted, or not prophecies at all. The book wasn’t tested in the “market places of integrity and truth”; it was tested by people who barely read it.
This is an article that just gives a few examples: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/09/100-challenge.html
@Jon
You brutally misrepresent what the word “fact” means. Facts are unchangeable and exist without anyone believing in them. What people believe only reflects what happened in history; beliefs are not events {that was my point in this comment: “I agree that the Bible is a useful historical document, but it is not a reliable source of facts (as implied by your article), only beliefs.”}.
The inaccuracy of the Bible is presented in the Gospels themselves. The four Gospels are drastically different, especially concerning the events surrounding the crucifixion and the resurrection. Why would neither Mark nor Luke mention an earthquake? Why would John not mention any miracle surrounding Jesus’ death when the rest did? Why do all four books have Jesus’ empty tomb first discovered at different times by different people?
Ben, if the prophesies are self-fulfilling then they must have some great power in themselves to be fulfilled in time past, our time and times to come. All I’m saying is look at them and the studies done about them (again if necessary) – if you are seeking.
About the misquoted prophesies – I don’t know of them and therefore can’t give a response to that claim. But how can we know that it’s misquoted if we do not know the original quote or take the ones in the Bible as authoritative?
You said, “The book wasn’t tested in the “market places of integrity and truthâ€; it was tested by people who barely read it.”
ok, that was an off the cuff statement – I humbly change it to
“It must be proven in the “fire†and the “market places of integrity and skepticismâ€.
If you still disagree, then I would tend to disagree with you on that. Here is why.
All I’m saying is that if this happened to books in the New Testament, then, I’d expect the same sort of skepticism from any group of persons reading the writings in the Old Testament also. And guess what, skepticism in this light is very, very good. It acts as a filter.
“The inaccuracy of the Bible is presented in the Gospels themselves. The four Gospels are drastically different, especially concerning the events surrounding the crucifixion and the resurrection. Why would neither Mark nor Luke mention an earthquake? Why would John not mention any miracle surrounding Jesus’ death when the rest did? Why do all four books have Jesus’ empty tomb first discovered at different times by different people?”
But if you look at how each tell the story, it is quite obvious that they are telling the story from their “point of view” and for “different reasons”, in fact the mere fact that they all tell the story differently, goes to good reasoning their writings have integrity, because they were not copying each other. If an accident happens and three people gives a police report you are going to see that they all describe the same event, but each describes it a different way, that does not mean that they are not describing the same event accurately.
Then lets assume it is something like a police report.
Matthew says there was an earthquake while the other three do not, so Matthew must be lying because the other three would definitely mention an earthquake if there was one (or the other three were asleep and thus are useless as eye-witnesses). John doesn’t mention any miracles surrounding Jesus’ death, so John was nowhere around when the miracles occurred, John felt they weren’t really worth mentioning (just coincidences in his mind?), or the other three are conspiring together.
I’ll concede that the differences between the stories of the resurrection are minor and would be acceptable variations as long as Salome actually went with the two Marys and John and Matthew just forgot. Though, it is definitely of concern that none of the writers were actually at the tomb themselves, so their testimony is just hearsay.
Conclusion:
There are unacceptable variations in the stories of the crucifixion that need to be worked out through more interrogation, more interrogations, and threatening to pin the murder on the Gospel writers themselves (because that’s how the legal system works).
@Jbarry
I guess you’ve never heard anyone use the term “self-fulfilling” before have you?
It means that the prophecy will be fulfilled because of its existence alone. It’s like if I told you that you would meet the love of your life while you are wearing red shoes (I took this from “Avatar: the Last Airbender” the scenario belongs to Nickelodeon) and you believed me. Because you believe me, you would wear red shoes everyday, and then when you meet the love of your life, I am proven right. (I am not assuming that you would believe me or that you would wear red shoes after believing me, this is all hypothetical)
Lets take the formation of Israel for example. This seems like it is the fulfillment of a legitimate prophecy, but it is not. The prophecy for the creation of Israel was self-fulfilling because the prophecy encouraged the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel.
Now, a good prophecy to prove part of the Bible correct would be the one in Rev. 13:17-18. We are obviously well on our way to fulfilling that prophecy with either bar codes (happy b-day bar code) or computer chips. The only thing missing from the hypothetical code would be the number “666”. If our future method of payment in our hand or forehead somehow contains the number 666 (it would have to go without change after someone notices), then we have a legitimately fulfilled prophecy.
p.s. Everything after Mark 16:8 was added after Mark was written, which throws the legitimacy of the rest of the Bible into question (because if one part can just be added, there is potential for a lot of parts to be falsified).
p.p.s. Thanks for reading. Do I make poor word or grammar choices that confuse you in any way? Email to tell me: ben_pearson2003@yahoo.com.
p.p.p.s. Slightly off-subject: If you would like the Bible taught in schools, you can propose a class that compares religions across the world (you can’t promote, just learn about and compare). I took Comparative World Religions in high school (after I became an atheist so don’t worry about it ruining your kids faith) and everybody in the class loved it.
Ok, I know we could argue this forever, but I do not have a problem with Matthew saying there was an earthquake while the other three not mentioning the earthquake, if the other three said there was no earthquake, then I would have a problem, not mentioning something in your writings about an event does not mean, that that particular thing did not happen. I am quite sure that the writers did not write everything they saw, they only wrote enough so we could understand from their point of view and the message (God) wanted them to convey.
Although an earthquake is a pretty big thing to leave out, I’ll cease mentioning it.
What I want to know now is, what do you think each writer was trying to tell us?
I think an earthquake is big, but bigger than that is the Veil of the temple being cut in two, graves opening up and the dead walking out.
Matthew 27:51-53
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The overall message of the writers is this: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
That is the Good News
As I said in my article, I am not trying to convince anyone, there will always be skeptics and unbelievers, some go as far as to call the Bible myths and fables. But truth will always remain truth, even when we do not believe.
I wanted to know the meaning behind EACH writer’s work individually. You said they were trying to give us DIFFERENT messages.
I agree, the dead getting up and walking around is totally a bigger deal than an earthquake, way bigger. It is so big that it wasn’t written anywhere else in history. And did I bring up John? Oh yeah, I did. John didn’t mention it either.
Ben, I think you need to study the scriptures for yourself, I am not a Bible scholar. I think you were a Pastor at one time and you studied Comparative World Religions in school. I am not here to teach you how to interpret scripture, I think you are smart enough to do that on your own.
I give you the same advice. Study scripture, don’t just read it, analyze it, because that is the only way you’ll really learn.
And I was never a pastor, I just studied, and still do. Mythology is one of my hobbies 🙂
Hi Ben, you didn’t need to go through that long explanation, definitely wasn’t necessary. I was being facetious with that first statement.
I disagree with your “self-fulfilling” argument and you are not the only person I’ve heard with it. Even miracles that happen in my life are countered with that argument, but I had no such orchestrated game plan in mind.
Example: Got Laid off from Job – Prayed for Job – Had vision of exactly where I would get the Job and the circumstance under which I would get it – event happened as I saw it – then a year later another part of the vision was fulfilled – still in job today. Don’t know if you’d describe that as fulfillment of a prophetic vision, but I do because I am living it.
Now I must agree with you that there may have been some ‘self-fulfilling’ behavior on the part of people that read the promises but I think it’s very unlikely that this kind of behavior resulted in all the prophesies being fulfilled correctly or on time. Take for instance, the birth of Jesus (Yeshua), it may have been that there were some Jewish mothers that thought their son was going to be the Messiah and therefore named him Yeshua (Yahweh is savior), because it was promised through the writing in Genesis 3:15 that God would put enmity between satan and the seed of the woman.
Another tidbit to look at is the fact that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt by the Jews for other prophesies in Revelation to come through. Well everything is in place for that to happen. Now, it was rebuilt before in the era of Roman emperor Vespacion and his mad scientist even had fire raining from the temple (false miracle). Unfortunately the temple was not meant to be rebuilt by Rome, hence prophesy is not fulfilled.
BTW Ben, you misquoted Loswl – he siad,
“… it is quite obvious that they are telling the story from their “point of view†and for “different reasonsâ€
You said, “You said they were trying to give us DIFFERENT messages.
My apologies.
I don’t think that “prophecy” falls under the self-fulfillment category, unless the vision lead you to do specific things that you otherwise wouldn’t have done, and if you didn’t do these things, then the prophecy would be unfulfilled. I only conclude this by your description, but I assume the vision lead you to do something.
I absolutely hate personal prophetic revelations (PPR) because I have no way of verifying the facts surrounding the PPR.
I’m confused about how Gen. 3:15 has anything to do with Jesus. Yeshua/Jesus isn’t mentioned in that verse at all, enmity only means hatred, and God is talking to a snake (no matter how much tradition is behind it, it is never clarified that the snake is Satan). Of all the verses you could have chosen, that one is probably the worst.
Yes, I have to say that your example could very well become a fulfilled prophecy. Christians must be careful though, because it can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If anyone that believes in the prophecy aids in the rebuilding of the temple (like being a negotiator between the Jews and Muslims or paying for the temple, not like just placing a brick), the prophecy is automatically self-fulfilling.
P.S. You’re right, I was unintentionally dishonest. I could very well have changed the meaning of what Loswl said (though I don’t think I did). I’m sorry Loswl.
To rephrase: What were the authors’ reasons for omitting/adding certain, seemingly important, details from Jesus’ story?
I will leave the PPR alone for now – must say though that verification of facts in PPR is sometimes more possible than in a Biblical P. However I’m not gonna layout my whole story here.
Gen 3:15 does have something to do with Jesus. That’s the first prophetic promise I know that depict the seed of man (the woman) having an active opposition (enmity) against satan, not necessarily hatred alone – God hates everything satanic.
Jesus was very actively oppose to the rulership of satan over us so much that His opposition carried Him straight to the death and the grave – making Him the perfect sacrificial lamb for all of us. Without blood there is no remission of sin. I chose that verse because it is alpha in the prophesies about the coming of an opposition for you and me.
As for the Jewish Temple – I understand your reasoning but, I think it’s way beyond the physical now – things that should not be happening, are happening to make way for the fulfillment of this prophesy.
Now, I have not been keeping up with all the news but one that struck me was the news about the red heifer that was born recently. There has not been one around for well over a thousand years. Unfortunately it had a blemish so it cannot be used for sacrifice if and when the temple is built.
Also the Jewish Sanhedrin Council was reinstated recently. That’s significant for the running of the temple. DNA technology is also being used to find the bloodlines of people that are related to priest in the bible (don’t have all details).
I still don’t see how Gen. 3:15 is referring to Jesus at all. Once again, that was a snake God was talking to, not Satan. The story merely describes the relationship between snakes and humans (in that primitive time), and we’ve had an active opposition against snakes. This prophecy falls into the “not a prophecy at all” category I stated earlier.
“As for the Jewish Temple – I understand your reasoning but, I think it’s way beyond the physical now – things that should not be happening, are happening to make way for the fulfillment of this prophesy.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “way beyond the physical”, but as long as people who believe in the prophecy haven’t helped and won’t help, then it could come true.
You said,
Actually you can say the first statement about all the prophesies about the Messiah- the name Jesus was not mentioned in the original text – however this specific prophesy speaks of the birth of a child through the woman, who would have enmity (active opposition) towards the devil. It can’t be a snake because we don’t have an active opposition against snakes – some of us are scared of snakes, some of us keep them as pets and others even eat them. The snake (serpent) mentioned in Genesis is a symbol for Satan.
If you say that about this symbolism, then you must also apply it to all similar symbolisms in the bible. example, the Beast mentioned in Revelations who will rule the world – surely you don’t think this is a literal beast.
Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Revelation 13:17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
The Bible must be read meaningfully. It’s not all literal.
Using Google’s “define:” function, I have found no definition for enmity which includes the word “active” or anything near it. I don’t need to recant my last statement about us having an active opposition to snakes IN THAT TIME, because we did. We still have an active opposition to them. I cite every time you or any other human chooses to cut off the head of a snake in the yard.
Now, how do you have any clue what the snake actually stands for? The snake could easily stand for our curiosity or rebellion. And how can you tell when the Bible is using metaphors and when it’s not? Do you just say “well snakes can’t talk, so it must be a metaphor”? You blindly believe that it stands for Satan because that’s what you were taught.
As for Revelation, I would say John was higher than a kite.
And it is “Revelation”, not “Revelations”.
you said,
Sticking with the explanation I gave earlier, I say this also, it was not us that had enmity against the snake (satan) in the beginning, it was the snake (satan) that had enmity against us. This is why he tempted Adam and Eve. He knew that the wages of sin is death and knew that the moment we sinned, we would have that punishment placed on us. Thank God for His grace towards us, that while we were sinners, He died for us.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
There was no hate in the garden until after Adam and Eve committed sin (disobedience against God). All creation was affected by man’s sin and then, only then, did we have a hatred for animals such as a snake (reptile). And yes, in this light I do agree with your second thought, that we do have a dislike (not enmity) against snake (reptile) and other animals in the animal kingdom, but, not from the beginning. It was impossible for us to hate anything in creation before we committed sin. That hatred would be a sin.
Now, I know you are turning me away from the true nature of this blog post conversation but, I’ll play along.
Satan is known as a snake, dragon, beast, horned one, Lucifer, Beelzebub etc, etc. It’s kinda pointless to say that what I believe is the result of what I learnt. Isn’t that the way it is with most knowledge, it’s either passed on or discovered? Anyway, you want to twist this my friend, satan is a snake, metaphorically speaking.
Oh, not because something is on Google, mean it’s true or perfectly right.
Here is the meaning of enmity: the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
Now the reason I agreed with you, sorta, is because enmity does call on other nouns such as
animosity, antagonism, friction, antipathy, animus, acrimony, bitterness, rancor, resentment, aversion, ill feeling, bad feeling, ill will, bad blood, hatred, hate, loathing, odium; malice, spite, spitefulness, venom, malevolence. However, using anyone of these nouns by themselves is not necessarily describing enmity in it’s full context – you can hate something and not have enmity against it. Example you can hate apples, but are not actively opposed to it. If you were, you would be trying to pass legislation to cut down and burn all apple trees in the world or in the country you live. (that’s an example of being actively opposed to apples)
Hatred is one of those nouns which are encased in that word which makes your point almost valid, but not quite. Jesus was actively opposed to satan because, satan wanted us to all die from the punishment of sin because he hates us. Jesus came to die in our stead so that His righteousness could be imputed to us, resulting in us being saved from the punishment we deserved. If God hated sin but did not oppose satan we would all die in our sin (righteously), case closed. What good would that do us? Thank God that he is not only forgiving, loving and powerful, he is also gracious.
You must also look at the symbolism of the word snake, beast, dragon etc. throughout the whole bible and how it’s used in the real world also.
Remember one of the verse I gave above, also describes satan as a dragon. Don’t tell me you believe that a real dragon is going to give power to the beast (man of sin, antichrist)
I don’t think I’m diverting from the original topic, which is the accuracy of the Bible. What I am doing is focusing on a specific prediction.
I’m not saying that you believe something because you were taught it, I’m saying you BLINDLY believe something because you were taught it. That is the way humans learn from other humans, to blindly follow, but it is not the way we understand.
God put enmity BETWEEN the snake and the woman, and the snake and her children. So no, it is not a one-way hatred. Gen. 3:15. (Once again, I really like the Holy Scripturizer).
I provided Google’s “define:” function as my source so you know that I did look it up. You have not yet provided any citation for your definition. You have not established any credibility. And to say again, we do ACTIVELY oppose snakes by controlling what areas they can inhabit. I have not yet met anyone that would not kill a snake on their property regardless of its species.
“Remember one of the verse I gave above, also describes satan as a dragon. Don’t tell me you believe that a real dragon is going to give power to the beast”
I think you misunderstand. I’m an atheist. I don’t believe any of that. I’ve also already given you my opinion on John.
And lucifer has nothing to do with Satan.
I’ll give you the last word and be done with it.
Ben, I definitely don’t think I believe blindly. I’ve heard that excuse before and I think it’s weak. But, if you want to stick to that, fine with me. I made no claim of understanding by mere tutelage either.
you said,
God put enmity BETWEEN the snake and the woman, and the snake and her children. So no, it is not a one-way hatred. Gen. 3:15.
Unfortunately you’ve got this one grossly misunderstood also.
This is the way I understand it. Jesus (the seed of the woman) had enmity between satan and his seed (those that are of this world system and and hate the things of God).
Why do I explain it this way?
These verses and others
1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Acts 13:10
“You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
John 8:42
Jesus said to them [ The Children of the Devil ], “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
We who call ourselves Christians were children of the devil and those who have not yet believed in Jesus are also children of the devil, because from Adams time we were born out of Him (spiritually). This is the reason why the bible says we must be born again – those who are born of The Spirit is spirit and those who are born of the flesh is flesh.
My friend, those of us that love the wrong and hate the right are the seed which was spoken of in Genesis 3:15, not the seed of the reptilian snake. If it was so, then Christ birth was in vain – He did nothing to oppose our earths inhabitation of snakes (poisonous or not).
Now, how did Jesus have enmity against those who are the seed of satan? More than one ways:
1. Dying for us so that we can become children of God (apple to orange so to speak). Basically adapting us the family of God. ie. imputing His righteousness unto us so that we can become Sons of God – same title that Jesus holds. – not that we become gods
2. Spoke truth in the face of opposition to His Father’s ways, even to religious leaders
3. Spoke about the ultimate punishment of sin which is hell (complete separation from God)
4. Resurrected from the dead as He promised and promised that those who become children of God will be raised when He return for us.
PS., Here is the link to my definition of enmity (sorry for leaving it out)
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-enmity.html
One Love
A good conversation has been going on here, since my last visit to this post. I came back today as I am preparing a lesson on “Inner ency of Scripture” and wanted some information. I can give a load of proof that the Bible is true and it’s free of errors.
Jon, if you are waiting till someone proves (scientifically or by any other means) that the Bible is not what it claims to be, you are wasting your time. Let me tell you that the Bible proves science. When Isaiah said “He (God) is the one who sits on the earth’s horizon (Hebrew circle); its inhabitants are like grasshoppers before him.” no one had invented that the earth is a globe not flat. But Isaiah foresaw this truth.
Bible never disagrees with science. It rather proves that science is true.
My plead is trust God and trust in His word.
Yohan, Honestly? The biggest part of your faith disagrees with science. A man came back from the dead…after having his flesh whipped from his body, being nailed to a cross, being stabbed, and CLEARLY dying. There is no way that that agrees with anything scientific.
Read your own book:
Genesis 1:6-8, Genesis 11:4-9, 1 Chronicles 16:30, many verses in Psalms, and an abundance of minor references to flat, circular Earth that sits on pillars with a metal sheet separating some space water from Earth water that is held up by its own pillars.
By the way, a circle is not a globe …
Sorry Ben, but you picked the wrong part of scripture to suggest that faith disagrees with science. The resurrection is not a scientific phenomena, it’s supernatural – so therefore does not go against science or prove anything scientific – whichever way someone would want to argue it. Don’t worry though people have been perplexed about the resurrection since Jesus’ 1 Corinthians 15:35 [ The Resurrection Body ] But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”
Even people who are beheaded for Christ will rise again – sure science got their Cryonics [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics ] tubes with heads in them for hope of restoring them to a body later on. – We’ll see how that works without a spirit.
Check this out, I bring you back to one of your favorite guys because I could not find the other scripture I sought, but this will do.
Revelation 20:4-6 (New International Version)
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Please don’t try to argue religion vs science with something both sides can’t “scientifically prove” – it can be reasonably argued that it happened – but not scientifically proven. And there is nothing scientific about a resurrection, so therefore, again it does not in anyway disagree with science (at least from what I’ve gathered – if you see one (a true resurrection) in your life time, trust me – you will not be able to put that activity in a lab and study it. Resurrection is not a scientific phenomena, it’s spiritual.
Jesus is the only man that brought forth a resurrection
[1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.]
and God (three in one) is the only entity that can bring about a true resurrection.
[1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,]
I’ll stop their gotta go make some money 🙂
I was listening to the radio yesterday and the speaker was talking about the process of translating the Bible into today’s vast amount of languages, which about 200 million people do not have the Bible in their own language. 2,400 languages or more are still in need of a translation (not an easy process).
One problem they encountered is that some languages are image based, so what they are doing to solve that problem is to translate the entire Bible into audio format. Another problem is that some of the objects and animals in the Bible other people in the world cannot relate to them, for example “lamb” If you do not know what a lamb or sheep is and about the characteristics of such an animal, then the phrase “Lamb of God” means nothing to you and many other scriptures loose their meaning, just based on that one word….Incredible!!
There is a hunger in the world for the Word of God but those of us who have it, refuse to read it.(or do not believe in it) I heard in World War 2, people used to tear off little bits of the Bible so, that they could have a little piece of it to read in their time of distress. Powerful!!
Just from reading some of the comments above seems like when we read the Bible we usually interpret it from two world views, either a Christian World View or an Atheistic world view.
For Example I have read some atheist blogs that like “Ben” quote scriptures that, they claim to prove that the Bible says that the “World is Flat” when none of these scriptures says that the “World is Flat” They basically throw out basic English Literature to do a biased interpretation of scripture. These interpretation are grossly wrong, The idea that “The World is Flat” did not originate with the Holy Bible.
“According to recent research, the modern view that people of the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat is said to have entered the popular imagination in the 19th century, thanks largely to the publication of Washington Irving’s fantasy The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828. Although the hypothesis of the flat Earth has long been generally dismissed, there are still occasional modern advocates of the hypothesis.” -Wiki
The baseless claims, that the Bible says that the “World is Flat” has never stood any ground with either Biblical or Atheistic Scholars, because a deeper study of these so called “scriptures that gives proof” has never held any ground, especially when looked at without bias and studied against the original context and ideas of the author. Christians all over the world today do not walk around with the belief the “The World is Flat” it is just not one of the teachings of Christianity or Holy Scripture.
“Various cultures have had conceptions of a flat Earth, including ancient Babylon, Ancient Egypt, pre-Classical Greece and pre-17th century China. This view contrasts with the realization first recorded around the 4th century BC by natural philosophers of Classical Greece that the Earth is spherical. The false belief that medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth. In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.”
Christians sometimes try to equate the Bible with being scientific, but the Bible is not a scientific book it is a book designed for man to have a closer relationship with God. Now in saying that, their are many things revealed in the Bible that modem man just discovered.
Here is a link: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
At the same time even though the Bible agrees with scientific principles, there are things in the Bible that does not coincide or even agree with science, I would place these in the category of miracles. A miracle is an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. Such an effect or event manifesting are considered as a work of God. – dictionary.com
For example as Ben said: The brutal death and resurrection of Jesus and other things surrounding the event. Jesus walking on water, turning water into wine, healing the sick and the blind, feeding the multitude with five loaves and two fishes etc. these events defy what we know about Physics and the laws of nature, so they cannot be placed in a lab and be studied. Those who experienced it jump for joy, those who saw them are astonished, we who hear about them are skeptic, or have faith that they did happen, it just depends on your world view.
Ben, you said..
You got some explaining to do 🙂 Don’t just drop verses because as we have discovered before – what you say don’t hold much water, if any.
What part of your first passage of scripture says the earth is flat?
Genesis 1:6-8 (King James Version)
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
All this verse does is describe the new earth, there was more water in the stratosphere, this is what explains the long life span of men back then – I don’t have all the proper scientific explanation for this but, this also explains the Great Flood. If you ever wondered where all the water came from to flood the earth, this is one of those verses that give a clue to that. However my question still stands, where in this section of scripture is there an intelligent argument for the earth being Biblically flat?
Genesis 11:4-9 (King James Version)
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Again I ask – What part of this passage gives you a reasonable argument for a Biblical flat earth?
Hope you are not gonna use “…the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”
We still use that terminology today and face does not mean flat it means surface.
1 Chronicles 16:30 (King James Version)
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
I was going to include the verses before and after but, it’s not necessary – it still hold it’s meaning.
Now, as before – where, where please show me something that my eyes may no longer be in a dark cloud. Where does it says the earth is flat. Or are you saying that the earth does rotate (move) so therefore, God is a liar. That does not hold any water also.
If you look back at the verses before and after – this was not Jesus who spoke, and the speaker was giving God praise for the stableness of the earth – We all know the earth is stable and though it does move, it’s movement is very negligible – if the movement of the earth was not negligible, we would not have to worry about the earth being “GREEN” we would have much greater problems, we would need to worry about the earth not becoming WHITE (too cold) or becoming RED (too hot). Moreover by the writer saying, “…stable, that it be not moved.”, that’s a hyperbolical statement (exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.)
You also said…
Yes, you are right a circle is not a globe but, a globe is a circle, however not a perfect circle, it’s a sphere. This is why the earth has a circumference (derivative word here is circle) – only a circle can have a circumference)
“A sphere is the shape naturally caused by a rotating mass. The forces and velocities acting on each part of the planet gives it a spherical shape. Its these centrifugal forces that also make the planet “bulge” a little at the equator
Secondly, gravity pulls to a central point, if all mass is pulled from all directions, the eventual shape will be round.” ~ answers.yahoo.com
“Aristotle knew that the earth was spherical, citing the horizon, the Earth’s circular shadow during lunar eclipses, and other phenomena.” ~ http://www.sacred-texts.com
Jbarry, How can I possibly respect a discussion with you if you claim that little I say holds water? I’ve posed genuine problems with certain interpretations and you might as well have ignored them.
There was a misunderstanding. The verses I cited were all to establish that the Bible does not support science, I did not say, nor imply, that those verses claimed the Earth is flat.
A circle is a two-dimensional object no matter how you twist semantics. That’s all I should have to say on that.
You’ve resorted very quickly to using the old “if it doesn’t make sense, then it wasn’t to be understood literally” argument. Is the Bible a valid scientific source or not? Does it support science or not? If it says the Earth has a piece of metal between a large body of water in the sky and the water below, can you consider it scientific?
Yea, Aristotle may have known the Earth was a sphere but apparently the writers of the OT didn’t know…otherwise they might have mentioned it. Let me say again, a circle is not, in any sense of the word, a sphere.
I still don’t follow your conjectural argument. The fact that I said your arguments do not hold much water, is because they have too much holes dude. I have obviously agreed and stated where I agree with you – but the things I have agreed with you on don’t give you any substantial footing on which to stand. I am willing to hear you out though but, not to the “bitter end”.
BTW, Who claims the Bible is a substantial scientific book? If we do, then we like you are totally wrong in our insight of the Bible.
Jbarry, The whole rant I started was originally directed toward Yohan because he made the bold claim that the Bible proves science.
@Loswl
I’m sorry for my language.
The firmament, which I don’t see just as much as you don’t see a giant piece of metal, was beaten out as if a piece of metal to separate the two expanses. You can of course regard the upper expanse as the clouds, that fits well with what they believed, but the firmament could also be opened, and clouds are not “opened”, they are more or less dropped. I wasn’t adding my own thoughts, the Bible clearly supports the idea of a physical separation between the two expanses and it resembles metal in its formation.
I’ve read christiananswers, have you read anything that contradicts them?
OK, assuming that christiananswers is right and the Hebrew word for “circle” can also mean “sqhere”, then the Hebrew translation of that verse supports neither conclusion that the Earth is flat or spherical, and that should be obvious.
A simple experiment involving a table and a flashlight will show that it can still be night in some places while day in others on a flat Earth while the sun (flashlight) is rising. But that was a really cool interpretation and I’ve never heard it before.
@Yohan Perera
I want to make this my absolute final post here. There have been cultures, and obviously some still exist, that use poor descriptions in the Bible to base their science on. One such culture imprisoned Galileo and threatened Kepler.
Also, because of the wide range of possible interpretations resultant from poor, inaccurate descriptions, the Bible cannot be used to validate science in any way. You can, however, use the Bible to HELP validate history.
That was my main point in this whole thing (starting at Yohan’s 10/26 post), not to prove the Bible teaches a flat Earth — they had plenty of access to Greek works — but to show that the Bible is not a consistent source of science.
Ben
I think we both look and interpret scripture differently (from our own world view), When I read the passage in Genesis 1:6-8 about firmament …I don’t see where it says metal plate?
“And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
I looked up the word Firmament and I found:
–noun
the vault of heaven; sky.
Origin:
1250–1300; ME < LL firm?mentum sky, L: support, prop, stay, equiv. to firm?(re) to strengthen, support (see firm 2 ) + -mentum -ment – dictionary.com
That is exactly the understanding that I have of firmament.
I found this explanation for Firmament at Wiki:
Firmament is the usual English translation of the Hebrew “raqiya`” (pronounced rä·k?’·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the ground.
The word is derived from the Hebrew raqa, meaning “to spread out” by stamping, stretching, beating, or making broad,, e.g. the process of making a metal bowl by hammering metal flat, or “to make a spreading (of clouds)”
Obviously the writer in Genesis was not talking about a stamping out of a mental object in the expanse of the sky, but rather the “spreading out” of the clouds in the hemisphere above the ground, which is exactly what I see when I go outside and look up.
You Said: “but the firmament could also be opened, and clouds are not “openedâ€
When I look at the sky, I see days and nights that are extremely cloudy and the clouds closes our vision of the heaven, sun, moon, stars etc. Some days and nights are not so cloudy (or you may not see any visible cloud formation), they open up to reveal the heavens. so from man’s perspective…clouds do open and close.
Note: Sorry that you are deciding to not comment anymore, it was a pleasure having you participate on our blog in such a rich discussion. I know we may never, see eye to eye on these issues, but most importantly, I hope you find a relationship with your maker someday…I know, I know..you don’t believe in God,..but nothing is impossible. 🙂
Ben, I took the liberty to test out your table/flashlight theory in my office (love it BTW). I love to do experiments, that’s why I get annoyed when some people say Christians are against science. Science to me is just the study of what God made.
Anyways – yes, it seems you could have somewhat of a day / night with a flat earth, but the nights would be very short and days longer. The experiment with the flashlight can’t be conclusive though because, we need a light source that is proportionate in luminosity, plus we’d need distance too but, we’ll leave that for the big boys.
Jbarry
I’m forced to be a liar because of what you did (I said I wouldn’t post again). I’m not one who believes that Christians oppose experimentation, since the vast majority of discoveries have come from theists, but I am still really happy you did the experiment.
I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that nights would be shorter. The sun would still have to go all the way around the Earth. But like you said, it would need more thorough experimentation to be understood in that kind of detail…someone’s going to stumble across this and think I actually believe in a flat Earth.
Ben, I hope no one thinks you believe in a flat earth by reading these comments. I’d be the first to defend you. And thanks for giving your position on Christians opposing experimentation, my point was not to accuse you of that – just to lay my thoughts out.
Now, When I did the experiment – the light from the flash light was spherical and stretched almost to the middle of the table with it’s outer edges being darker than the center – when the flash light is at the horizon of the table. Then as I raised the flash light, the shape of the light became larger and lit the whole table (outer edges darker, but still lit). When the flash light is directly above the table (what we’d call noon time), the whole table is lit. I took into consideration that the light is coming from one direction from the flashlight and that the sun would have a wider circumference of light. Just thought about this, with that type of direct sunlight (flash light type) everyday – we’d probably suffer some dangerous rays :).
The reason I said, the nights would be shorter is because of that spreading of the light effect. I would love to see this done with large scaled flat surface and large scaled light source – with consideration of a moon also and it’s tide effect.
jbarry, interesting experiment – I think there would be no nights if the earth was flat and not rotating, only facing the sun and going around it. However, if the flat earth was rotating, then the nights would be longer.
INSPIKS Cool, yes you’re right – also on target with Ben’s idea – I didn’t take the rotation aspect into consideration. Thanks.
I was driving to work today when I saw a flock of white birds flying South of my position against a dark gray sky, rainy season. Some were gliding while others were flapping their wings to fly. It looked real cool and brought to my mind the wonder of God.
I also saw another wonder yesterday on my way to work – a huge rainbow, as I drove towards it on the freeway, the end of the rainbow showed up on the road in the lane to my left. It was spectacular and the dept of it seem to be about at least a quarter to a half mile. That’s how long I drove before the rainbow ended up behind me. After seeing the birds today Dr. Weirsbe started a sermon on the radio, speaking about the wonder of God. He explained how the word wonder (wonderful) has more meaning than that which we give it today. He explain how something that has wonder, eg God, is capable of bringing us into humility, it’s unique, it has the ability to turn our minds to God and show us how small (not insignificant, but small in comparison to God) we are. He told the story of a communist leader that help to bring communism to Cuba, (didn’t catch the name) that explained how he started to turn towards God.
The communist was feeding his daughter with a spoon, he gave the spoon to his daughter and while she fed herself and made a mess 🙂 he looked at her ears and thought how wonderful and perfect it was – he said to himself, this could not have been made by pure chance – it seemed impossible that the ear of his child could have been formed randomly and be so perfect. He then suppressed the thought because, he knew that if he continued he would have to deny his Marxist beliefs which teaches evolution, and grab hold of the thought that there must be a God that created his daughter.
The communist later gave up communism and became a Christian. Dr. Weisbe also explained that wonder is not lost but increased with scientific studies, the more we learn about what God has made, the more awesome stuff we find out and it makes us think rationally about this God reality. I’ve heard of astronauts and other scientist that gave their lives to God because of the wonder of the findings they have discovered by studying and researching what this earth and galaxy has. Somehow some of us have lost the essence of wonder in our society.
We deem it unnecessary to think deeper than what others have studied and proclaim. We don’t look at the small thing anymore, like a flower or a bee and think, is this even possible with the arguments which is presented in my text book? I believed there is a God from I was young even without reading the bible. Everything around us points to that fact. However, believing that there is a God did not and could not save me from sin. Even the demons believe and tremble James 2:19. It’s the belief in Jesus and His finished work on the cross that saved me.
I heard and read the Bible and I do agree, the Bible is reliable.
Ben, please do not use the “F Bomb” I edited your post, thanks.
Where in the Bible does it say…“..the Earth has a “piece of metal” between a large body of water in the sky.. “
I don’t think we should add our own thoughts to the Bible to try to prove it wrong, we should dig a little deeper to find out the original intent of the author. we still have water above and water below us today (clouds are made up of water vapour) and of course there is water in the sea, lakes and ponds) I don’t see a metal plate separating them???? …..I am puzzled?
For those interested here are some readings on the “Flat Earth Theory” blamed on Christians and the Bible.
Did Bible writers believe the earth was flat? http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html
Who invented the idea of a flat Earth? http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html
The Bible of course teaches the correct shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above “the circle of the earth†(the Hebrew word for “circle†can also mean a “sphereâ€).
Also, Luke 17:34-36 depicts Christ’s Second Coming as happening while some are asleep at night and others are working at day-time activities in the field-an indication of a rotating earth with day and night at the same time. -christiananswers
How can you say, from the same lips, that the Bible is a useful historical document, but not a reliable source of facts? The moment you find an An American or European history book that is useful but not reliable, please throw it out and burn it and for that fact please find all of them and burn them and then find the internet copies and erase them. That statement makes no sense. However I do see that you are trying to say that the Bible has content in it that calls on the reader to believe (have faith). That is true, but don’t you need to have faith with an historical quote from our historical contemporaries also – maybe that’s a conundrum to you but, for millions of people around the world, it’s not.
You bring up a very good point. Have have often wondered why whenever some archeologist digs up a scrap of parchment it changes our view of history.